[0:00] I was invited to give you a taste of a
[0:03] typical law school classroom experience
[0:04] here today and I thought I would take
[0:06] advantage of this opportunity to do
[0:07] something guys it's been on my mind for
[0:08] a while to stand up and to proudly say
[0:11] god Bless America god bless the Bill of
[0:13] Rights and thank God for the fifth
[0:14] amendment I'm not ashamed to say I'm
[0:16] proud of the fifth amendment and I'm not
[0:18] I'm proud to admit on camera and on the
[0:20] internet that I will never talk to any
[0:21] police officer under any circumstances
[0:23] with all due respect sir I'm doing
[0:27] something really extraordinary here
[0:28] today something you'll almost never see
[0:29] another law professor do as long as you
[0:31] live I'm really putting myself on the
[0:33] spot here at my even this was my idea by
[0:35] my invitation I have given up half of my
[0:37] time approximately I'm giving equal time
[0:39] and the last word to an expert who
[0:41] really knows something about what I'll
[0:42] be talking about so I'm opening myself
[0:43] up to the possibility that he will
[0:44] contradict me I was a criminal defense
[0:47] attorney when I was in private practice
[0:48] so I wanna make sure in fairness to you
[0:50] if I misleading you were giving you a
[0:51] slanted or one-sided presentation you'll
[0:54] be able to get the last word from
[0:55] somebody else I'm sure he'll have a lot
[0:56] to teach all of us including myself the
[0:59] Fifth Amendment to the United States
[1:00] Constitution provides no person shall be
[1:02] compelled in any criminal case to be a
[1:04] witness against himself and this
[1:07] unfortunate amendment has gotten a bad
[1:08] rep in in recent times much of it
[1:11] tragically and unnecessarily through as
[1:13] you may have heard the headlines let me
[1:17] read you something that was taken out of
[1:18] the newspaper this morning and I want
[1:20] you to listen to it closely and I'm
[1:21] giving you heads up
[1:21] I'm warning you in advance which is not
[1:23] fair to you not fair to me but I'm
[1:25] giving you a head I'm giving you a
[1:26] warning that I'll be quizzing you on
[1:27] this in just a few minutes this will
[1:29] test your aptitude for legal study and
[1:31] legal practice listen closely it won't
[1:32] take long
[1:33] last night agents of the Norfolk Police
[1:36] Department found three victims of an
[1:38] apparent murder dead in an apartment in
[1:39] the East ocean view area the apparent
[1:41] victims of a gangland-style slaying and
[1:43] possibly the victims of gang-related
[1:45] violence the police are investigating
[1:47] this as a possible murder and suicide
[1:48] but right now suspect that the three
[1:50] were all killed by the same individual
[1:52] no suspects have yet been identified in
[1:54] the slain but veteran police detective
[1:56] George Brooke has confirmed the police
[1:58] are following up on evidence pointing to
[2:00] the possible involvement of an off-duty
[2:01] naval officer as the perpetrator the
[2:04] bodies which were found by the apartment
[2:05] manager at about 8 o'clock in the
[2:06] morning appeared to have been slain
[2:08] sometime earlier in the same evening
[2:09] probably sometime between midnight and
[2:11] 2:00 o'clock in the morning
[2:13] that's it those are all the facts I'll
[2:15] ask you to remember and it won't be for
[2:17] very long either let's see how well you
[2:18] do I'll be quizzing you in just a few
[2:19] minutes now here's the easiest question
[2:22] you'll ever get from a client in all the
[2:24] days of your life question hey the
[2:26] police are here they want to talk to me
[2:28] what should I do
[2:29] well I could give you my answer to that
[2:31] question in case you haven't already
[2:32] guessed it but why don't we go to a real
[2:34] expert
[2:34] just as Robert Jackson a prosecutors
[2:37] prosecutor like me he began his private
[2:39] practice in Buffalo New York
[2:41] years before I did and after that he
[2:42] served as general counsel for the Bureau
[2:44] of Internal Revenue
[2:44] the US Department of Treasury the
[2:46] securing the Exchange Commission
[2:47] Assistant US Attorney General for the
[2:49] tax division later the Solicitor General
[2:51] and the Attorney General of the United
[2:52] States and then the chief he was
[2:54] prosecuted for the Nuremberg trials
[2:55] that's an impressive resume years later
[2:58] when he was a justice on the Supreme
[2:59] Court justice Jackson stated quote any
[3:02] lawyer worth his salt today we would say
[3:04] his or her will tell the suspect his
[3:07] client in no uncertain terms to make no
[3:10] statement to the police under any
[3:11] circumstances there's the title of my
[3:13] talk I'm here to explain you the
[3:15] surprising and somewhat counterintuitive
[3:16] and admittedly unlikely reasons why
[3:18] justice Jackson was right I'm reminded
[3:22] of this because I'm amazed we're all
[3:23] amazed by the frequency with which we
[3:25] see newspaper articles coming on all the
[3:27] time from people who really ought to
[3:28] know better who stay well I'll talk to
[3:30] the police I mean after all I'm I'm a
[3:32] senator I'm AJ Simpson I'm I'm an
[3:36] experienced highly polished individual
[3:37] eigvals got a lot of experience with
[3:38] public relations even criminal defense
[3:40] attorneys there was a local news story
[3:41] here in the virginian-pilot
[3:43] just a couple of months ago about
[3:44] experienced criminal defense lawyer who
[3:46] ended up getting convicted of criminal
[3:48] assault because he talked to the police
[3:50] he was accused of having assaulted
[3:52] another attorney in the hallway there
[3:54] were no other witnesses to this a woman
[3:56] said that he grabbed her by the throat
[3:57] during an argument over a case he denied
[3:59] it
[3:59] at trial was his word against hers he
[4:02] said I did not even touch her but
[4:04] unfortunately for him when the police
[4:06] had approached him earlier and said
[4:07] would you be willing to answer some
[4:08] questions he said sure why not I'm a I'm
[4:10] an attorney I'm a criminal defense
[4:11] attorney I'm savvy I'm sophisticated
[4:13] I've got oratorical prowess I'm I'm
[4:15] accustomed to dealing with the police by
[4:16] all means
[4:17] and then there was a conversation that
[4:18] was not recorded when the case went to
[4:20] trial it was no longer his word against
[4:22] hers because when he testified the trial
[4:24] I never touched her the officer took to
[4:25] the stand and testified well when I met
[4:27] with
[4:27] he said he did put his hand on her
[4:29] throat but just as a joke then he had to
[4:31] take the stand again and say that's not
[4:32] true I never said that I never admitted
[4:34] to you that I now it's his word against
[4:35] two people who's telling the truth we'll
[4:37] never know for sure but he was found
[4:38] guilty now here's part of the problem
[4:42] the heart of the problem as justice
[4:44] breyer on the US Supreme Court explained
[4:46] in 1998 is quote the complexity of
[4:48] modern federal criminal law codified in
[4:50] several thousand sections of the United
[4:52] States Code and the virtually infinite
[4:53] variety of factual circumstances that
[4:56] might trigger an investigation into a
[4:57] possible violation of the law make it
[4:59] difficult for anyone to know in advance
[5:01] just when a particular substr statements
[5:04] might later appear to a prosecutor to be
[5:06] relevant to some investigation one
[5:09] expert on criminal law recently noted
[5:11] that estimates of the current size of
[5:13] the body of federal criminal law vary
[5:14] although it has been reported that the
[5:16] Congressional Research Service can no
[5:17] longer even count the current number of
[5:19] federal crimes that's right even the
[5:21] federal government has lost count
[5:22] these laws are scheduled over all 50
[5:24] pages of the US Code encompassing
[5:25] roughly 27,000 pages worse yet these
[5:28] statutes often incorporate by reference
[5:30] for the provisions of administrative
[5:32] regulations estimates of how many such
[5:34] regulations exist are even less well
[5:36] settled although the ABA thinks there
[5:38] may be nearly 10,000 here's one of those
[5:40] 10,000 federal criminal statutes on the
[5:42] book that you probably never heard about
[5:44] it's called the Lacey Act 16 USC section
[5:46] 33 70 says it's a federal offense for
[5:49] any person to import export transport
[5:51] sell receive acquire or purchase any
[5:53] fish or wildlife or plant taken
[5:56] possessed transported or sold in the
[5:58] violation of any law treaty or
[6:00] regulation of the United States or any
[6:03] Indian tribal law or any state or any
[6:05] foreign law people have been convicted
[6:07] in federal court for violating the
[6:09] statute because they brought back a bony
[6:10] fish from Honduras not knowing that
[6:12] Honduran law not American but Honduran
[6:14] law forbade the possession of the bony
[6:15] fish people have been convicted under
[6:17] the lists law because they were found in
[6:18] possession of a what's called a short
[6:19] Lobster elapsed have is under a certain
[6:21] size some states prevent you from
[6:23] possessing the lobster if he's under a
[6:24] certain length it doesn't matter if he's
[6:26] dead or alive it doesn't matter if you
[6:27] killed it or if you died of natural
[6:28] causes it doesn't even matter if you
[6:29] acted in self-defense
[6:30] did you know that there do now it can be
[6:33] a federal offense to be in possession of
[6:34] a lobster admit it raise you hand if you
[6:36] did not know bad there's the problem
[6:38] and that's only one of 10,000 different
[6:40] ways you know the government gets pretty
[6:42] upset when people like me instructs the
[6:43] client people like me and justice
[6:45] Jackson don't talk to the police don't
[6:47] answer any questions but you know they
[6:48] can't have it both ways
[6:49] you people you've got 10,000 different
[6:51] ways of convicting us good for you but
[6:53] you know with the bitter comes to the
[6:55] sweet with the good comes to the band
[6:56] that's ten thousand different ways my
[6:57] client might unknowingly implicate
[6:59] himself in some sort of a criminal
[7:00] transaction one of the reasons I decided
[7:01] to give this talk I recently received a
[7:03] phone call from a former student of mine
[7:04] a regional law school graduate who may
[7:06] be watching this online we're putting it
[7:08] on the Internet and he told me hey I've
[7:10] been approached by the Internal Revenue
[7:11] Service they want to ask me a couple of
[7:12] questions they asked if I don't be
[7:13] willing to but they say that I'm not a
[7:16] suspect and I know I'm my heart I don't
[7:17] think I've done anything wrong and
[7:18] violation of the Internal Revenue
[7:19] Service provisions lord have mercy
[7:22] there's no man on earth those no there's
[7:24] no woman in this country who can
[7:26] honestly say with complete confidence I
[7:27] know I have never violated any provision
[7:28] of the Internal Revenue Code he said but
[7:30] but they say I'm not a suspect and I
[7:32] know I've done nothing wrong it's okay
[7:33] if I talk to him I said no no you tell
[7:35] them you will not talk to them without
[7:36] immunity I explained to him why that was
[7:39] true and they never he never heard from
[7:41] them again okay why you should never
[7:44] talk to the police let me just spell it
[7:45] out for you let me make it plain to all
[7:46] of you these are the top 10 reasons I I
[7:48] don't actually really you lie to you I
[7:49] don't really have ten I don't I'm for
[7:51] ten but I've got time for eight and
[7:52] that'll be close enough number one and
[7:55] this really ought to be good enough
[7:56] contrary to what you laymen
[7:57] instinctively naturally supposed it can
[7:59] not help there is no way it can help you
[8:02] plenty of folks think that I can and
[8:04] they're always wrong you cannot talk
[8:05] your way out of getting arrested
[8:06] officer Brooke you've interviewed
[8:08] thousands of criminal suspects have you
[8:10] ever how many times in your experience
[8:11] have you approached someone asked if you
[8:13] could ask them some questions because
[8:14] prior to the interview you had some
[8:15] evidence pointing to as possible guilt
[8:17] and because of the extraordinary
[8:18] persuasiveness and eloquence with which
[8:20] he articulated his innocence you setup
[8:22] sorry nevermind bank all my bad I won't
[8:24] and you he talked you out of arresting
[8:26] him never never it never happens I've
[8:30] often asked other criminal defense
[8:31] attorneys and all of your experience
[8:32] have you ever once hit a case where you
[8:34] looked back in hindsight and said thank
[8:35] God my client talked to the police they
[8:37] laugh at me they laugh at me they say
[8:38] you've got to be kidding me you cannot
[8:40] help you you can't talk your way of
[8:41] getting arrested and contrary to what
[8:43] you might suppose if you never said to
[8:44] the Rules of Evidence
[8:45] what you tell the police even if it's
[8:46] exculpatory cannot be used to help you a
[8:49] trial because it's what we call hearsay
[8:51] under
[8:51] Rules of Evidence specifically rule 801
[8:53] d-2 a if you want to look it up
[8:55] everything you tell the police as the
[8:57] saying goes can and will be used against
[8:59] you but it cannot be used for you from
[9:00] time to time
[9:01] I've known attorneys who tried to call
[9:03] to the stand a police officer and say
[9:04] officer would you tell the jury what my
[9:06] client told you because what my client
[9:08] told him was actually good for my case
[9:09] if you tried that at trial the
[9:10] prosecutor will object that is hearsay
[9:12] and the judge will agree the police will
[9:13] not be allowed and your request to tell
[9:16] the jury what your client told him no
[9:17] matter how good it may be for your case
[9:18] it cannot help and that ought to be good
[9:21] enough reason that ought to be reason
[9:22] enough to keep your mouth shut but if
[9:26] you're not persuaded let me go talk
[9:27] about a couple of others number two
[9:28] obviously one of the most obvious if
[9:30] your client is guilty as many of them
[9:33] are but even if he's not even if he's
[9:35] innocent he may well admit his guilt
[9:37] with no benefit in return now of course
[9:40] many of you are thinking to yourself
[9:41] what's so wrong about that I mean
[9:43] shouldn't guilty people be confessing
[9:45] confessions good for the soul it's good
[9:47] for law enforcement it's good for the
[9:48] prisons yes yeah sure all those things
[9:50] are true and liked the rest of you if I
[9:52] or anyone close to me is ever the victim
[9:54] of some sort of a serious crime I hope
[9:55] they get the right guy I hope they
[9:57] convict him I hope they put him away we
[9:58] all feel that way
[9:59] hey but what's for the rush friends you
[10:01] don't go to admit your guilt the first
[10:02] time they come by to meet with you in
[10:04] federal court 84-68 II 6% of all
[10:07] defendants plead guilty at some point
[10:08] before trial if your client is guilty
[10:10] and really ought to punish and really
[10:11] gotta have a go through some sort of a
[10:13] cleansing act of contrition fess up and
[10:15] admit his guilt
[10:16] there'll be plenty of time to do that
[10:17] they almost always do no need to rush no
[10:19] need to tell the police something wait
[10:21] and see if we perhaps your client can't
[10:23] work out some sort of an arrangement
[10:24] where maybe he'll make some sort of
[10:26] compensation to the alleged victim or
[10:27] maybe he'll be able to get some sort of
[10:29] a discount in his sentence and he'll be
[10:30] able to treat it'll be treated fairly
[10:32] then like everybody else who had the
[10:33] benefit of a good lawyer who said please
[10:35] do not talk to the police
[10:36] and don't forget by the way even if even
[10:39] if your client only admits things that
[10:42] the police already knew you might think
[10:44] well what harm can it do he says he
[10:45] wants to talk to the police
[10:46] all he wants to do is admit that he was
[10:47] there but the cops know that he was
[10:49] there alright go ahead and tell him
[10:50] well how can I hurt it might hurt if the
[10:51] police officer becomes transferred to
[10:53] Minnesota or deceased or injured or
[10:55] comatose or cannot be located by the
[10:56] time of trial the case will be dismissed
[10:58] if there's no confession but if your
[10:59] client admits to things that's
[11:01] confession is freely admissible against
[11:03] him it can be a basis for getting him
[11:04] convicted all
[11:05] himself Senator Larry Craig can explain
[11:07] all this to you the Innocence Project of
[11:12] the United States has confirmed that in
[11:15] more than 25% of all the cases where an
[11:17] innocent man was convicted and then
[11:19] later released from prison after he was
[11:21] exonerated by DNA of us and more than a
[11:22] quarter of those cases these innocent
[11:24] people people we know to be innocent
[11:25] made incriminated statements delivered
[11:27] outright confessions or pled guilty how
[11:30] do they do that he'll tell us all about
[11:31] it I'm trust here's a couple of famous
[11:34] examples you can just ask them you don't
[11:35] have to take my word for it they are on
[11:37] the left with Eddie Joe Lloyd he was
[11:38] convicted in 1984 of the murder of a 16
[11:41] year old girl in Detroit after he wrote
[11:43] to police with suggestions on how to
[11:44] solve arias recent crimes during several
[11:46] interviews police fed details of the
[11:48] crime to mr. Lloyd who was mentally ill
[11:50] and they lied to him and convinced to
[11:52] this mentally ill man that by confessing
[11:54] he might help them smoke out the real
[11:56] killer he later signed a confession it
[11:58] gave a tape-recorded statement the jury
[12:00] delivered in less than one hour before
[12:01] convicting him on the basis of this
[12:02] confession there was no other
[12:03] substantial evidence against him the
[12:05] judge said I'd hang you if I could but
[12:07] the death penalty was not available in
[12:08] Michigan at the time but after almost
[12:10] two decades in prison he was released
[12:12] after DNA evidence proved that this man
[12:14] was innocent and that falsely committed
[12:15] confessed to a crime that he did not
[12:16] commit on the right as Earl Washington
[12:18] who was released from prison just a few
[12:21] years ago here in Virginia after
[12:22] spending 18 years behind bars for a cook
[12:25] after being committed of a rape and a
[12:26] murder that we now know he did not
[12:27] commit after having been exonerated by
[12:29] DNA evidence but be this man mr.
[12:31] Washington who was in fact confirmed to
[12:33] be mentally [ __ ] was able to confess
[12:36] to several crimes at the request of the
[12:37] police some of which we know he could
[12:39] not have committed that's the problem
[12:42] some of you are thinking to yourself
[12:44] well none of this concerns me because
[12:45] I'm not guilty of anything and I never
[12:47] will be and I will never represent
[12:48] people who do okay let's talk to you
[12:52] people you innocent folks those of you
[12:54] who have never committed a crime and
[12:55] never will in none of your clients will
[12:56] either and no and you wouldn't go out
[12:58] with a girl who did fine you better not
[13:00] talk to the police either okay because
[13:02] number three well put the guilty behind
[13:04] us forget about them let's talk about
[13:06] innocent people number three even if
[13:07] your client is innocent and he denies
[13:09] his guilt and almost entirely tells the
[13:11] truth odds are good he will easily get
[13:13] carried away and tell some little lie or
[13:15] make some little mistake that will hang
[13:16] him this is human nature you get
[13:19] in there it's a stressful situation
[13:20] imagine a perfectly innocent client the
[13:22] police say he's been guilty of a murder
[13:23] he's totally innocent as innocent as any
[13:25] one of us so he goes in there he meets
[13:26] with the police he says I don't know
[13:27] what you're talking about
[13:28] I was nowhere near there I I I didn't
[13:30] kill him I've never killed anybody I
[13:31] don't have a gun I've never had a gun
[13:32] I've never touched a gun in my life I
[13:33] was nowhere near Virginia Beach that
[13:35] like then let naik up and that last line
[13:37] was a lie he went over the top he was
[13:39] getting carried away he guided into this
[13:40] groove he started seeing all kinds of
[13:41] things almost all of them true that he
[13:43] knew would tend to exculpate himself
[13:45] then he got carried away he just said
[13:47] one thing that wasn't true and
[13:48] unfortunately for him they can prove
[13:49] that it wasn't true he may be convicted
[13:51] on that basis alone but let's say to you
[13:53] let's say well let's not a problem I'll
[13:54] tell my client only to tell the truth
[13:56] I've met with him I know he won't lie to
[13:57] the police he won't make any mistakes
[13:58] okay that's still no guarantee you won't
[14:00] be getting into trouble because even if
[14:01] your client is innocent and only tells
[14:03] the truth and doesn't say anything that
[14:06] is false now already would mind you were
[14:07] pretty well nigh into Fantasyland the
[14:10] odds of this being anybody being able to
[14:11] pull this off are really quite slim no
[14:12] matter how innocent they may be but just
[14:14] do the same let's pretend let's assume
[14:16] he gives the police nothing but the
[14:17] truth and he is totally innocent he will
[14:18] always give the police some information
[14:20] that can be used to help convict him
[14:21] always for example suppose you tell this
[14:25] to the police here's what your client
[14:26] tells to the police in his denial of
[14:28] guilt I don't know what you're talking
[14:29] about I would I didn't kill Jones I
[14:30] don't know who did I wasn't anywhere
[14:32] near that place I don't have a gun I've
[14:33] never owned a gun in my life I don't
[14:34] even know how to use a gun yeah sure I
[14:36] never like the guy but who did I
[14:37] wouldn't kill him I've never heard
[14:38] anybody in my life and I would never do
[14:39] such a thing let's suppose every word of
[14:41] that is true 100% of it is true what
[14:43] will the jury hear at trial officer
[14:45] broke was there anything about this your
[14:47] interrogation your interview with the
[14:48] suspect that made you concerned that he
[14:50] might be the right one yes there was he
[14:51] confessed to me that he never liked the
[14:53] guy and then the prosecutor put that up
[14:55] in big letters and he'll say ladies and
[14:56] gentle degree it's pretty clear that
[14:57] we've got the right guy here we've
[14:58] proven that he was in Virginia Beach
[15:00] that night that's opportunity and
[15:01] remember officer brouk admitted that
[15:03] after extended question he was finally
[15:04] able to get the defendant to admit that
[15:06] he never liked the guy there's your
[15:07] motive motive plus opportunity wham bam
[15:09] please
[15:12] but juries eat it up and innocent people
[15:15] get convicted to this way sometimes how
[15:16] often hopefully not too often but we
[15:17] know what happens the United States
[15:19] Supreme Court don't take my word for
[15:21] this in Ohio versus Ryan of the Supreme
[15:23] Court of the United States said quote
[15:24] one of the Fifth Amendment's basic
[15:27] functions is to protect innocent men who
[15:29] otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous
[15:31] circumstances truthful responses of an
[15:33] innocent witness as well as those of a
[15:36] wrongdoer may provide the government
[15:37] with incriminating evidence from the
[15:39] speaker's own mouth see it's not just
[15:40] some criminal defense attorney telling
[15:41] you this even the Supreme Court says I'm
[15:43] right in the fact under the facts of
[15:44] that case by the way in Ohio vs. Reiner
[15:46] a child tragically was died apparently
[15:48] the result of shaken baby syndrome
[15:49] question was who had shaken this baby to
[15:51] death and one of the possible suspects
[15:54] was a babysitter who had spent some time
[15:56] with the child that week
[15:57] the babysitter's story was I I don't
[15:59] know what you're talking about I did not
[16:00] kill the child I don't see I did not to
[16:02] get heaven I don't know who shook the
[16:03] baby it was never me I never did
[16:04] anything of any violent nature to the
[16:06] child the Ohio State Court said well
[16:08] you've got no Fifth Amendment privilege
[16:09] you would by your own admission told the
[16:11] investigators that you've done nothing
[16:12] wrong that you were not involved so
[16:13] obviously your answers can't incriminate
[16:14] you the United States Supreme Court
[16:16] reversed and said well that's not true
[16:17] even though they chucked this babysitter
[16:19] denies shaking the child denies seeing
[16:21] the child died and I know he denies
[16:23] knowing how the child died this
[16:25] babysitter by her own admission
[16:27] apparently was being was that the
[16:29] government wanted to ask whether the
[16:31] babysitter might have been with the
[16:32] child at some point that week during the
[16:34] week prior to the death and that answer
[16:35] although but by itself not sufficient to
[16:37] convict anybody could help convict her
[16:39] that me she's got a Fifth Amendment
[16:40] right to have refused to answer to the
[16:41] question the court held because it could
[16:44] be used to help convict Allman versus
[16:47] United States the Supreme Court said
[16:48] more than 50 years ago eerily prophetic
[16:52] they said to many Americans even those
[16:54] who should be better advised view this
[16:56] privilege as a shelter for wrongdoers
[16:58] they too readily assumed that those who
[16:59] invoke it are either guilty of crime or
[17:01] commit perjury and claiming the
[17:02] privilege that's not true and it never
[17:03] has been but it gets worse
[17:06] Kenny favors it can number 5 even if
[17:09] your client is innocent and only tells
[17:11] of the truth and does not tell the
[17:13] police anything incriminating which by
[17:14] the way is almost impossible to pull
[17:16] this off I mean imagine talking to the
[17:18] police for two three four hours and and
[17:20] somebody like him can't somehow managed
[17:21] to extract from you is something that
[17:22] could be used to help convict you there
[17:25] to be extraordinary
[17:26] think anybody's pulled it up but what
[17:27] even if you could pull it off there's
[17:28] still a grave chance that his answers
[17:30] can and will be used to crucify you in a
[17:33] court of law if the police no offense
[17:34] don't recall his testimony with 100%
[17:36] accuracy
[17:37] all right now this brings us back to
[17:39] that pop quiz I warned you about I told
[17:40] you earlier remember [ __ ] it's only been
[17:41] a few minutes and you weren't up all
[17:43] night and you were at the subject of
[17:44] physical duress you were in the relaxed
[17:46] setting of a classroom here
[17:47] you were given heads-up advanced notice
[17:49] that you would be quizzed on this
[17:51] question we'll start with a couple of
[17:53] easy ones remember that article I read
[17:55] you about that how many people did the
[17:58] police find shot to death last night at
[17:59] that oceanview apartment that I told you
[18:00] about a1 b2 c3 d4 who says a b c get
[18:09] this so get there with a camera show get
[18:10] move that camera look how many hands
[18:12] we've got there for C ok D you're all
[18:17] wrong everybody who raised their hand
[18:19] everybody who raised their hand you are
[18:22] the kind of people who should never talk
[18:24] to the police under any circumstances or
[18:25] as long as you live
[18:26] why is C not the right answer by the way
[18:28] if you know raise your hand yes
[18:33] excellent I didn't say anybody was shot
[18:35] I didn't say gun bullet shooting
[18:39] firearms didn't use any of those words
[18:42] but I don't blame you if you thought
[18:44] that I did this is the way the human
[18:46] mind works we hear things we fill in
[18:48] details
[18:49] I said gangland style slang that may or
[18:52] may not apply something but it doesn't
[18:53] mean that anybody was shot and that's
[18:55] the problem you see even if your client
[18:57] is innocent and only tells the truth and
[18:59] doesn't tell them anything incriminating
[19:00] and his statement is videotaped his
[19:03] answers can be used to crucify him you
[19:05] might say wait how can that happen
[19:06] I insisted in my insistence I called the
[19:08] police and I said look at you want to
[19:09] talk to my client you can talk to him
[19:11] but only if you finish yet the whole
[19:12] thing I don't want there to be any
[19:13] debate between the two of you over what
[19:15] happened okay well the videotape the
[19:16] whole thing if the police don't recall
[19:18] their questions with 100% accuracy he'll
[19:20] be convicted on that statement alone for
[19:22] example suppose a man goes to the police
[19:24] they say we're investigating a possible
[19:25] murder a shooting and the guy says quote
[19:28] I don't know who killed Jones officer
[19:29] Brooke with all due respect I it wasn't
[19:31] me I've never touched a fired a gun in
[19:33] my life how can that help incriminates
[19:35] man how could they possibly be used
[19:36] against this man to help convict him you
[19:39] think it's inconceivable but it's as
[19:41] easy as pie
[19:42] all the officer has to do is read this
[19:44] statement to the jury and then the
[19:45] prosecutor says officer proof was there
[19:46] anything about that statement that
[19:47] confused you or surprised you yes there
[19:49] was he says in a moment of sinister high
[19:50] drama in the courtroom and what was that
[19:52] and then obviously Brooke turned to the
[19:53] jurors and he says I never said anything
[19:55] about a shooting I said we were
[19:56] investigating a murder he was the one
[19:59] who brought up a gun then you turn to
[20:01] your client your client says that's not
[20:02] true that's not true I remember he was
[20:04] the one or one of the cops I was with
[20:05] him for three hours one of them in the
[20:06] car said something about they said they
[20:08] had a witness that I was the shooter
[20:09] okay I'll put you on the stand and then
[20:11] your client testifies no no no they did
[20:13] tell me shooting I mentioned they
[20:14] mentioned before I said anything about a
[20:15] gun they brought it up first and then
[20:16] the police said that's not true and now
[20:18] what it's your word against theirs for
[20:19] what you're gambling with your clients
[20:21] life and police officers can very easily
[20:24] make a mistake like that just as so many
[20:26] of you did just a few minutes ago about
[20:27] whether you recall having heard me say
[20:29] something about somebody actually being
[20:30] shot police make mistakes innocently
[20:34] inadvertently unintentionally any
[20:36] statement no matter how exco pictorially
[20:38] may seem on its face can be used to
[20:39] crucify you all by itself if the police
[20:41] are either willing to lie not likely or
[20:43] if they just have a innocent Mis
[20:45] recollection of the details as to what
[20:47] they did and did not tell you before you
[20:48] told them what you said all of these by
[20:50] the way all of these problems disappear
[20:52] if you take justice Jackson's advice and
[20:53] say thank you very much opposite by no
[20:55] thanks how about this one here we go now
[20:58] here's the most surprising of all I've
[21:00] saved the most surprising one for a last
[21:01] let's suppose you've got the following
[21:03] scenario your client thinking about
[21:05] talking to the police he acts like he
[21:06] says I've got nothing to hide they think
[21:08] that I killed somebody in Virginia Beach
[21:10] last night well weary and this is what
[21:12] and this is what your client tells you
[21:13] in confidence I don't know who robbed
[21:15] that store it wasn't me in fact I've got
[21:18] a pretty good alibi I wasn't even in
[21:19] Virginia Beach that night last night I
[21:21] was four hours away visiting my mother
[21:23] in the Outer Banks unfortunately no I
[21:26] did not pay for guests with a credit
[21:27] card
[21:28] I used cash and so I've got no witnesses
[21:30] that can prove I was there except my
[21:31] word and of course mama for what that's
[21:33] worth which is nothing but so your
[21:38] client says let's so the police want to
[21:39] talk to me and I want to seem
[21:40] cooperative so what I'll do is I'll tell
[21:42] them that I was in the Outer Banks last
[21:43] night no there's nothing on its face
[21:45] incriminating about any of that let's
[21:47] assume by the way that you will believe
[21:48] with all your doubt you've given your
[21:49] client a polygraph exam you've known him
[21:52] for years you've been going to the same
[21:53] Bible study for 30 years you know beyond
[21:55] a shadow of a doubt that he's telling
[21:56] you the truth and he's not admitting
[21:59] anything he's not admitting motive he's
[22:01] not admitting opportunity he's not
[22:02] admitting that he was there how on earth
[22:04] could this come back to haunt us how on
[22:06] earth could this come back to be used
[22:07] against us be honest raise your hand if
[22:09] you really think the answer to that
[22:10] question is I can't see how it could
[22:11] possibly be used against me you're
[22:14] afraid I'll calling you right now I
[22:15] won't call on you well you're wrong
[22:16] you're dead wrong you're always wrong
[22:18] everything you say every time you talk
[22:21] to the police you will regret it you see
[22:24] the problem is here it is this is the
[22:25] last point I think it's almost willing
[22:27] even if your client is innocent and only
[22:29] tells the truth and doesn't tell the
[22:30] police anything incriminating and the
[22:32] entire interview questions and answers
[22:33] are videotape you're even his truthful
[22:36] answers can be helped to use crucify
[22:37] even an innocent man if the police
[22:39] through no fault of theirs end up in the
[22:41] possession of any evidence even mistaken
[22:43] and unreliable evidence that anything
[22:45] your client told them was false even if
[22:47] in fact it was true again going back to
[22:49] this example from a moment ago let's
[22:51] suppose I tell I go ahead and I meet
[22:52] with the police I got think I got
[22:53] nothing to hide I tell them I was in the
[22:55] Outer Banks last night officer how can
[22:56] it be used to convict me by itself it
[22:58] cannot it cannot help at all by itself
[23:00] but what if I later find out to my
[23:01] horror after I put my cards on the table
[23:03] that they've got a witness a girl that I
[23:05] went to high school with and on a peach
[23:07] of a witness we've never been enemies
[23:08] she'd have no reason to lie she swears
[23:10] she thinks she saw me in Virginia Beach
[23:12] last night a couple of blocks away from
[23:14] that store about an hour before it was
[23:15] robbed
[23:16] now her testimony by itself isn't going
[23:18] to help the prosecutor help if she's all
[23:20] they've got I'll get this case thrown
[23:22] out before a trial but it's like an
[23:23] idiot I talked to the police and I told
[23:25] them the truth I told them I was in the
[23:27] Outer Banks and now a lo and behold
[23:29] tragically it turns out they've got a
[23:30] witness a false mistake and confused but
[23:32] sincere incredible witness who could
[23:34] testify that I was here at Virginia
[23:35] Beach now they're lucky to get a
[23:37] conviction because what they'll do I've
[23:39] just turned this cop and this woman into
[23:41] the government's star witness they'll
[23:42] put her held up put officer Brooke on to
[23:43] testify about how my client lied to him
[23:45] about being in the Outer Banks and then
[23:47] they'll put on this girl this the girl
[23:48] who otherwise would have not even helped
[23:49] with the case at all who will testify no
[23:51] that's not true that was a lie I saw mr.
[23:53] Dwayne's client here in Virginia an hour
[23:55] before the robbery not so far from the
[23:57] store by herself she would not have
[23:58] helped the government in any significant
[24:00] way but what I have just done you see is
[24:02] given them the other part of the puzzle
[24:03] and now I'm doomed just asked them I
[24:08] close I close with this example here we
[24:11] have a couple of recent celebrity
[24:13] examples of aya dish that even people
[24:15] who admit nothing
[24:16] always end up a denying it I mean sorry
[24:18] they always didn't end up regretting it
[24:20] on the Left we have Martha Stewart she
[24:22] was the victim the subject of an
[24:23] extensive government investigation that
[24:25] was looking into the possibility that
[24:26] she was guilty of violations of certain
[24:28] federal laws securities laws fraud kinds
[24:30] of things they couldn't pin that on her
[24:32] but they were able to in a conviction
[24:34] because she denied it talking to the
[24:36] police and leading someone for
[24:37] shareholders she said no it's not true I
[24:38] was not guilty so they charged with
[24:40] lying to federal investigators and they
[24:42] got a conviction and she was sentence to
[24:43] five months in prison Marion Jones on
[24:45] the right side another person who would
[24:46] still be out today if she had always
[24:48] taken the advice that I'm giving you now
[24:50] she was asked if she had ever used his
[24:52] steroids a controlled substance and
[24:54] instead of taking the fifth she said no
[24:56] I never took steroids when I won those
[24:58] Olympic gold medals
[24:59] later on it turned out that she was
[25:00] lying she worked out a blue deal so you
[25:02] pled guilty she admitted that she was
[25:03] lying and she over her strenuous
[25:05] tear-filled objection even though she
[25:06] has two young children was just recently
[25:07] sentenced to prison for six months the
[25:10] guy who sold her the stare rights the
[25:11] pusher he got only four months but she
[25:13] got six months because she lied to the
[25:15] police and said that she did not do it
[25:16] you see the problem Michael Vick who
[25:18] originally pled guilty as you know to
[25:20] these charges with respect to the
[25:21] operation of this dog combat sort of
[25:24] operation at his home at sentencing like
[25:26] many other criminal defendants even
[25:27] though he eventually pled guilty at
[25:29] sentencing one of the things that one of
[25:31] the reasons his sentence was a little
[25:32] harder than it might have otherwise been
[25:33] the judge said was because when he
[25:35] initially met with the police he lived
[25:36] them said I didn't do anything I didn't
[25:38] do it I don't know what you're talking
[25:39] about even guilty people but not only
[25:42] guilty people will always end up
[25:43] regretting talking to the police so my
[25:47] advice to you justice Jackson was right
[25:49] any sane competent lawyer in his right
[25:51] mind will always tell every client under
[25:53] all circumstances I don't care if you're
[25:54] innocent I don't care if it's the truth
[25:55] if it's the truth
[25:56] great we'll tell the jury all about it
[25:58] there'll be time enough to put our cards
[25:59] from the table but before we get there I
[26:01] haven't seen yet what the police got
[26:02] they may have missed
[26:03] and Confused witnesses who will
[26:05] contradict even the truthful stuff that
[26:06] you say we have no way to know no way to
[26:09] predict whether the information that you
[26:10] give them even if truthful and reliable
[26:12] will end up unwittingly dispelling our
[26:15] demise so keep your mouth shut don't
[26:17] answer any questions let's take the
[26:19] fifth you'll be glad that you did god
[26:20] Bless America god bless the blessed the
[26:22] Bill of Rights and the geniuses who
[26:23] bequeathed it to us but now in fairness
[26:25] I give equal time or what's left of
[26:26] equal time to a police officer who will
[26:31] explain to the extent to which if any he
[26:33] agrees or disagrees with anything I've
[26:34] got to say I didn't I have no idea to
[26:36] know what he's going to say but it'll be
[26:37] interesting here let me get in the
[26:39] microphone get let's give the hand off
[26:42] of the tourist group the Virginia Beach
[26:44] Police Department I cannot talk that
[26:52] fast
[26:54] not even interviewing I'm gonna take the
[26:56] podium here professor cuz I took notes
[26:58] on some of the things you said and
[27:00] everything he said was true
[27:03] okay and it was right and it was correct
[27:06] and I'm just gonna give you a few ideas
[27:07] I'm gonna tell you a few examples but
[27:10] first I'm gonna give you a little
[27:12] information as was said earlier I've
[27:15] interviewed thousands of people I've
[27:16] interviewed people with foreign Police
[27:18] Department's when I was in the Navy I
[27:19] was in law enforcement and I was a
[27:21] criminal investigator thank God we're in
[27:24] the United States because most
[27:25] interviews and Italy Spain and so forth
[27:27] start out physically okay there's no
[27:30] police police abuse over there they can
[27:32] do pretty much what they want any time
[27:34] they want any how they want so just be
[27:37] aware of that and be thankful for yet
[27:39] biggest question I was asked when I
[27:40] first I am a 3l and there's some of my
[27:43] classmates in here best days coming up
[27:46] May 10th when we get to leave so those
[27:49] of you that are applying and I told a
[27:51] couple of people this you think it's
[27:52] hard getting into law school try getting
[27:54] out okay couple of things I was asked
[27:58] how do I quit from getting speeding
[27:59] tickets very easy question quit speeding
[28:01] okay but something professor Duane
[28:04] brought up are any of you guilty of
[28:07] anything how many of you drove here
[28:08] today anybody go above fifty five on the
[28:12] interstate anybody drive at home and go
[28:14] above fifty five on the interstate
[28:16] because
[28:17] if you if you stake and there and there
[28:34] you go and people are inherently honest
[28:36] and that's their biggest downfall okay
[28:37] they really are or they want to tell
[28:39] their story and if you drive 55 on the
[28:42] interstate where it's 55 the only thing
[28:44] you're gonna do is meet the person
[28:45] behind you because they're gonna
[28:45] rear-engine you're gonna get run over
[28:47] okay so that's a fact but everybody does
[28:49] something that they can get in trouble
[28:51] for I can follow as a police officer I
[28:52] was uniformed I could follow a car
[28:54] however long I needed to and eventually
[28:56] they're gonna do something illegal and I
[28:58] can pull them over and justifiably
[29:00] illegal to pull them over so just be
[29:02] aware of that
[29:03] don't don't think you're so innocent in
[29:05] such a thing when you get stopped for a
[29:08] traffic ticket everyone likes to be
[29:10] somewhat honest and what's the first
[29:12] thing the police officer asked you do
[29:14] you know how fast you're going
[29:15] if the speed limits 35 you'll say oh 38
[29:19] 40 because you want to be kind of honest
[29:21] even though you're doing 50 you just
[29:24] said 38 40 you just admitted to breaking
[29:27] the law you just confessed so they can
[29:30] go to court with that with a confession
[29:31] then you're exceeding the speed limit
[29:33] okay so think you need to think about
[29:35] those things and when you do become
[29:37] defense attorneys which I may who knows
[29:40] you need to think about those things for
[29:42] your clients the other thing you need to
[29:44] think about your clients and this is
[29:46] gonna seem very terse people are stupid
[29:49] your clients are stupid and I've had
[29:51] defense attorneys come to me matter of
[29:53] fact one on a motion to suppress just
[29:56] Tuesday come up to me and tell me his
[29:58] client was stupid okay
[30:00] they're very straightforward they do
[30:03] foolish things they talk to the police
[30:05] you got you guys need to be aware of
[30:07] that now in my past and it wasn't
[30:12] exaggerated I have interviewed thousands
[30:14] of people I have a I've arrested and
[30:17] dealt with over a thousand felony well
[30:19] actually more than a thousand felonies
[30:21] probably got 20 car yeah about a
[30:24] thousand fellows 2,500 misdemeanors 98%
[30:27] of a conviction rate eighty percent of
[30:28] them I don't even have to go to court
[30:29] why
[30:31] because there's confessions because they
[30:33] confess so these people have no problem
[30:37] the hardened criminals have no problem
[30:39] talking to the police people like to
[30:41] tell their story and they'll sit in that
[30:44] room and think about it you're picked up
[30:47] by the police you're in a little room
[30:48] there's one chair here there's a desk
[30:50] there's another chair what's the thing
[30:52] you want the most right at that point to
[30:55] get out of that room to be out of that
[30:58] room I think the police officers police
[31:00] officers shift is ending in 15 minutes
[31:02] does the police officer want to get out
[31:04] of that room my overtime rates 58
[31:06] dollars an hour do I want to get out of
[31:08] that room I have no problem I'll stay
[31:10] there for 10 hours I'll say I'll take
[31:12] that $600 okay so I have no motivation
[31:15] to want to leave you do and that's
[31:17] that's how we get you to try to talk I
[31:19] have my job my job is to develop
[31:23] probable cause develop a good case a
[31:25] great case is a case with a confession
[31:28] get it to the Commonwealth's Attorney so
[31:32] that they can prosecute the case with
[31:34] little if any effort and the
[31:35] Commonwealth Attorney's love those cases
[31:37] the little inny in the effort because
[31:39] they come with a stack of files that
[31:40] high in court every day so they love
[31:43] those cases that's my job the defense
[31:45] attorneys job is to hope they get to
[31:47] their client before I do and make sure
[31:50] they don't talk to me no matter what
[31:53] give you an example and this will go
[31:55] right along with what Professor Glenn
[31:56] was putting up his examples I had an
[31:58] interview that went something like this
[31:59] were you involved in the burglaries no I
[32:02] had nothing to do with them you didn't
[32:04] have anything to do it no you were in a
[32:05] car with all this stolen stuff in it
[32:07] yeah nothing do about know you knew it
[32:10] was there
[32:10] yeah okay now we got possession of
[32:12] stolen property felony okay but you had
[32:14] nothing to do with it no so what did you
[32:17] need the money for I had to pay some of
[32:19] my court costs from another thing I got
[32:21] in trouble for oh so he took the money
[32:23] from stealing the stuff I have enough to
[32:25] charge him now with burglary
[32:26] simple as that would you see the picture
[32:29] on that camera
[32:30] of the house with the Christmas
[32:32] decorations this is a real case scenario
[32:34] yeah did you go in that house no I
[32:36] didn't go into that one
[32:41] so there's ways around it there's ways
[32:46] to get around people who try not to talk
[32:48] to you
[32:48] and again as Professor Dwayne said if
[32:52] you wanted to go and say you wanted to
[32:53] go into a boxing match hundred dollars
[32:55] if you win you've never box before you
[32:58] have to face somebody who's an Olympic
[33:00] boxer you're going to lose you're gonna
[33:04] face somebody who's been interviewing
[33:06] people for in my case twenty eight years
[33:09] they're going to lose unless you're
[33:12] purely innocent now on the other side of
[33:15] it I don't want to put anyone that's
[33:16] innocent in jail but I try not to bring
[33:20] anyone into the interview room that's
[33:21] innocent and there are a couple that I
[33:24] have let walk away because they were
[33:26] innocent
[33:27] okay the interviews how do we approach
[33:30] the interviews there's a number way to
[33:32] approach interviews there's a number of
[33:33] types of people that I deal with first
[33:35] thing I do anyone know what they get
[33:37] told first when they're in an interview
[33:39] Miranda Miranda warning okay it's not a
[33:44] right you don't have a right to Miranda
[33:46] those rights have always been theirs
[33:47] called the Constitution you're just
[33:48] teaching you're doing a real quick class
[33:50] on the Constitution for these people
[33:51] usually they don't listen to it and this
[33:54] is the way I get my Miranda warning look
[33:56] I have to tell you this just pay
[33:58] attention okay
[34:00] they're usually sitting back or they're
[34:01] very attentive you have the right to
[34:03] remain silent
[34:04] do you understand that yes anything you
[34:06] say may be used against you in a court
[34:08] I don't have to say it will be I say it
[34:09] may be okay and they get that you have a
[34:12] right to an attorney and if you can't
[34:14] afford one one may be appointed to
[34:16] represent you got that you can decide
[34:19] not to talk quit talking to me at any
[34:21] time and exercise these rights you
[34:22] understand that
[34:23] sure now before I do the primary thing
[34:28] that's needed with those rights and
[34:29] that's to get a waiver I say now before
[34:32] you say anything let me tell you what I
[34:35] know and over all the time I've had to
[34:38] put together what this individual was
[34:40] supposedly involved and I don't say
[34:42] supposedly because professor doing
[34:43] sitting over there that this individual
[34:46] was involved in I will tell the story
[34:48] that I put together and it'll be pretty
[34:51] close to what happened
[34:52] and I can see that it's pretty close to
[34:54] what happened because that individual
[34:56] starts slumping down in their chair put
[34:59] their hand to their face doing this in
[35:02] their mind oh my god I'm going to jail
[35:03] forever okay and I can see it I said now
[35:06] that you know what I know do you want to
[35:08] talk to me and why do I do that because
[35:12] if I didn't do that is if I said you
[35:15] want to talk to me they'll say no so I
[35:18] give them the time to think about and
[35:20] then comes the next phrase now before
[35:23] you start talking to me let me tell you
[35:25] the difference between a lie and a truth
[35:26] if you lie to me and I get before the
[35:29] judge and I tell the judge that you were
[35:31] dishonest with me that's just not gonna
[35:33] make them happy but if I get before the
[35:35] judge and tell them you're honest
[35:36] straightforward willing to take
[35:38] responsibility for your actions that is
[35:41] going to help you that's not a lie
[35:43] though that is true in Virginia Beach
[35:45] courts it will help them you know they
[35:48] may not get five years they may get
[35:49] three years they're still going to
[35:51] prison or they're still going to have a
[35:53] felony but it will help them and then I
[35:56] have to determine what kind of person I
[35:58] have and there's two types there's the
[36:00] one like I mentioned to you earlier
[36:01] where I have to talk to him talk to him
[36:05] about different things get into their
[36:09] own skin as the word is and try and get
[36:13] them to talk to me and discuss things I
[36:15] had a sexual assault case I had to talk
[36:18] to the guy how hot the woman was and I
[36:20] understand where he was coming from and
[36:22] when that when I said that we were buds
[36:24] and he started talking to me and he's
[36:27] still sitting in prison okay
[36:30] so you've got to get in there and you
[36:31] got to go place the other side is I
[36:33] can't try and act like that individual
[36:36] acts okay I can't try and act like what
[36:42] we call lovingly a hood rat I can't try
[36:45] and act and talk like him because I'm an
[36:50] older white guy we don't talk like that
[36:52] and that would be an insult and you
[36:55] can't insult people it doesn't matter
[36:57] who they are it doesn't matter where
[36:58] they grew up
[36:59] it doesn't matter where they're from you
[37:01] can't insult people like that you have
[37:03] to be yourself so you have to get in
[37:05] into there
[37:05] mindset in the way they're thinking and
[37:07] have a discussion with him the other
[37:10] type of person is the one that likes to
[37:12] tell story this young man great man I
[37:15] love him to death he didn't go to jail
[37:16] because I went to bat for him because I
[37:18] felt sorry for him he was a newlywed he
[37:20] was having money problems
[37:21] former Marine I said tell me what
[37:24] happened and he told me this beautiful
[37:26] story about what happened what he had
[37:29] done is he had sold a piece of equipment
[37:30] that his ex-employer had had that he had
[37:33] stolen told me the beautiful story of
[37:35] what happened about him finding it on
[37:37] the side of the road and all that kind
[37:39] of stuff
[37:40] Dameon question about him after he
[37:43] finished his whole story very unwell the
[37:46] very beautiful story i sat there and
[37:47] listened to it for 15 minutes I looked
[37:50] and I said you stole the stuff from your
[37:52] boss didn't you yes sir I did
[37:53] I had nothing I really had nothing
[37:59] except the fact that he had sold it so
[38:02] there's those those types of people and
[38:04] then the third type the one who tries to
[38:06] be the hood who tries to be the criminal
[38:07] who cries like a baby when they walk
[38:09] into jail but when they're on the street
[38:11] there is tough tough as rocks you go in
[38:13] there with your paperwork you sit down
[38:15] and you just start doing paperwork and
[38:17] usually have a videotape sitting on top
[38:19] of it just for measure so they think I
[38:21] have a videotape and you just sit there
[38:25] don't tell them Miranda just sit there
[38:28] and wait for them to start talking
[38:29] because they will they want to talk
[38:32] people want to communicate they hate
[38:33] silence that's why when people speak you
[38:37] hear hmm when they're talking because
[38:40] they need to fill that void with
[38:41] something people hate silence so that's
[38:44] the other one so that's another way so
[38:46] so you see how there's an unlevel
[38:48] playing field here even with with the
[38:50] most educated individual there's an
[38:51] unlevel playing field if you talk to the
[38:54] police everything's gonna be written
[38:55] down if you get pulled over for it for a
[38:57] ticket they give you the ticket and you
[39:01] pull off you ever see the cop pull off
[39:03] right after you usually not that's
[39:05] because on the back of their ticket
[39:07] they're writing down everything you said
[39:09] and it's gonna come into court if you go
[39:13] to court
[39:14] everything that said I write down every
[39:17] phone call I make has to have a
[39:20] listening device on it is that illegal
[39:23] how many parties need to know that a
[39:25] phone conversation in Virginia is being
[39:27] recorded one me I know is recorded I get
[39:33] many many confessions over the phone
[39:39] okay back to the people yes they're
[39:42] stupid okay people are stupid I had a
[39:44] young man who told me straight up I'm
[39:47] going to college I'm going to law school
[39:51] I'm too smart you'll never find out what
[39:54] happened okay he was going to Tidewater
[40:00] Community College the law school of I
[40:02] suppose Tidewater Community College he
[40:06] was the partner to the one who I told
[40:08] you interview about just a little while
[40:10] ago where I would ask him what he needed
[40:12] the money for he was his partner and he
[40:14] was very smart so he thought he thought
[40:19] he was a very intelligent individual I
[40:21] ended up arresting him five times out of
[40:24] his house his mother hated me she liked
[40:26] me the first time she apologized she
[40:28] didn't really like me much the second
[40:30] time it got to the point where she
[40:31] really hated me after that he's doing
[40:33] eight years upstate he's very smart
[40:35] because he decided to tell me how smart
[40:38] he was and in telling me how smart he
[40:41] was he let it slip that he doesn't sell
[40:43] stolen stuff to pawnshops he sells it to
[40:46] flea markets because they do not have to
[40:47] report to the state I know how to drive
[40:51] to a flea market just as good as anyone
[40:53] else and go look for stuff that I'm
[40:55] looking for so he was trying to impress
[40:59] me with his ability to be smarter than I
[41:01] was and he confessed
[41:05] so people are inherently stupid
[41:09] especially criminals now and don't get
[41:12] me wrong there are some very intelligent
[41:13] criminals out there and most of them
[41:16] work in really big office buildings in
[41:18] for suits
[41:20] yep she went to jail is she hurting no
[41:24] but there are some very intelligent
[41:26] Street criminals out there as well to
[41:28] get other people to do their bidding and
[41:29] so forth and so on and people are afraid
[41:31] to turn on them but there are some very
[41:34] foolish people just a couple of other
[41:37] things I do a thing usually with younger
[41:40] people usually between the age of I try
[41:43] not to deal too much with juveniles but
[41:45] between the age of 16 and and 25 is once
[41:49] they've talked to me now let's back up a
[41:52] little bit you don't need a recording in
[41:55] court for a statement as Professor
[41:57] Dwayne said it's his word against my
[42:00] word if he was a defendant number one
[42:03] and this is the way it works and this is
[42:06] the way the real world works in case you
[42:08] guys haven't been out there that's out
[42:10] beside the windows out there the jury
[42:12] looks at a defendant sitting next to a
[42:14] Pross defense attorney that's strike one
[42:18] because the jury is already looking at
[42:20] that song as that being someone who did
[42:22] something that put them in that chair
[42:24] number two they get a uniformed police
[42:27] officer up there they get someone
[42:29] wearing a suit as a detective up there
[42:31] that is a professional witness that's
[42:34] strike two so now they have a
[42:37] professional witness against them and
[42:39] then if they've confessed and that
[42:40] professional witness is going to sit
[42:42] there and read from his or her notes the
[42:44] confession that's strike three go get
[42:47] your orange jumpsuit do not pass go do
[42:50] not collect $200 so they have all this
[42:52] trikes again and I know you're innocent
[42:54] till proven guilty but it's a jury of
[42:56] your peers and the perception is if
[42:58] you're sitting next to a defense
[42:59] attorney you have to prove you're
[43:01] innocent
[43:02] and that's that's just the perception of
[43:04] a lot of the jury no matter how many
[43:06] jury instructions they get they still
[43:08] perceive that person is a hoodlum
[43:09] is a criminal and no matter how hard
[43:13] some defense attorneys try to put their
[43:14] clients in suits and have them sit up at
[43:17] the table if the trial is a long trial
[43:20] they fall back to their old ways and
[43:22] they start acting and speaking in a way
[43:25] that's not very good for their case so
[43:29] saying that you don't have to have a
[43:31] recording myself
[43:32] crushin hearing a statement was trying
[43:34] to be suppressed because when I record a
[43:36] confession or an interview because we
[43:39] don't do interrogations the police
[43:41] we do not do interrogations that's a bad
[43:44] mean Nazi kind of word okay we do
[43:47] interviews okay you'd be amazed how much
[43:51] difference it makes when you use that
[43:52] one one-word advice is interrogation
[43:55] I'll take it off the tape and I'll have
[43:58] my secretary put it to paper me till
[44:01] afterwards I'll take that tape and I'll
[44:03] scan it over my magnet throw it in my
[44:06] box so I can use it again I do not keep
[44:08] the tape it is not evidence it's not
[44:10] required to be evidence it is there if
[44:13] it's there for the court it's just extra
[44:15] you don't have to have that but it's
[44:19] really good to have the suppression
[44:20] hearing he tried to suppress that after
[44:22] I testified the defense counsel stood up
[44:24] and says well judge I really don't have
[44:26] anything to say and the judge judge
[44:28] Canada said motion denied and let's move
[44:31] on and go to court so you don't have to
[44:32] have recordings you don't have to have
[44:33] videotapes the police videotapes that's
[44:36] just extra if you've got that police
[44:37] officer sitting there test fun you don't
[44:38] have to have that videotape you got the
[44:40] guy that was right there to tell you
[44:41] what happened but it's always nice to
[44:44] have those extra things and what I do
[44:45] for these young people is I'll say look
[44:48] the person who you broke into their
[44:51] house are very upset they're very angry
[44:53] because you sold their stuff to the
[44:54] pawnshop pawnshop stuff sold them they
[44:57] don't get their stuff back they're very
[44:59] angry they want you to go to prison okay
[45:03] they may be very angry they want you to
[45:05] go to prison they may want to to lessen
[45:08] that that's the start of what's commonly
[45:12] known as a lie because we are allowed to
[45:14] lie in interviews to lesson that you
[45:17] might want to make them happy and the
[45:18] reason that's why is because when it is
[45:20] a felony in Commonwealth of Virginia the
[45:22] victim has nothing to do with the
[45:23] prosecution or how long do people go to
[45:24] prison or any of that kind of stuff
[45:26] we're prosecuting them not to victim but
[45:30] to lessen that what I'd like you to do
[45:32] is write an apology letter to the person
[45:35] whose house you broke into just write it
[45:39] out and well how do I write it in your
[45:41] own words just right you know I'm sorry
[45:42] for what I did then say that you know
[45:44] when I broke into your house
[45:45] the other night whatever they ride it
[45:49] out they sign it I sign as a witness I
[45:52] put the date in the time that it was
[45:53] written I give it to the Commonwealth's
[45:55] Attorney it's entered as evidence as a
[45:57] written confession in the person's own
[46:00] handwriting
[46:02] I don't type it up again and have them
[46:03] sign it in their handwriting a written
[46:06] confession is that person going to get
[46:08] convicted I have never seen him not get
[46:10] convicted on that on an apology letter
[46:14] so in support of Professor Dwayne
[46:17] everything he says is right that's what
[46:19] I do
[46:20] now to take away the support I don't try
[46:24] and send innocent people to jail that's
[46:27] it that's all I have any questions or
[46:29] anything like that sir